Comments on: Their Fault, or Ours? http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/ fact after inaccurate fact Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:28:39 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Rod Pitman http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-66 Rod Pitman Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:43:31 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-66 While a more workable solution than a traditional RFP is in development, there should be a a billing cycle in place for a "fee collected strategy phase" that is also a part of the process that can be creatively connected to, but outside of, any existing RFP process. This will show that The City has "skin in the game" and all the players feel there is a proper exchange in, and win or loose we are collectively working as a team. While a more workable solution than a traditional RFP is in development, there should be a a billing cycle in place for a “fee collected strategy phase” that is also a part of the process that can be creatively connected to, but outside of, any existing RFP process.

This will show that The City has “skin in the game” and all the players feel there is a proper exchange in, and win or loose we are collectively working as a team.

]]> By: Justin Spohn http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-65 Justin Spohn Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:04:39 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-65 Interesting insights Douglas. One question I have though is where you say "One problem you might say, is that there is no agency fee collected for a big strategy phase..." Why is that? We always charge for that stage, it may only be a small percentage of the eventual budget, but it's one of the most important parts of the entire process. Interesting insights Douglas. One question I have though is where you say “One problem you might say, is that there is no agency fee collected for a big strategy phase…” Why is that? We always charge for that stage, it may only be a small percentage of the eventual budget, but it’s one of the most important parts of the entire process.

]]> By: Douglas May http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-64 Douglas May Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:52:14 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-64 Well put! I do believe however that RFP's for large mutli-million accounts may have some merit, but only if the clients takes the process seriously and reads the responses. For medium and small projects though, you're spot on. Small agencies can spend more time writing these than it takes to do the job. These small jobs do lead to long term relationships and while initially tactical, can become strategic through smaller directives by the agency. Frankly, it's the same small step approach that you mention in your blog. No fanfare here, just small consistent positioning over multiple projects over time. The client looks back after 12+ months and says, "Wow I'm building a strong effective brand". One problem you might say, is that there is no agency fee collected for a big strategy phase, but if the client becomes reliant on the agency, for say... an average of 6 years, the long term value of the client can be worth more. Of course, this only works with medium size clients. Well put! I do believe however that RFP’s for large mutli-million accounts may have some merit, but only if the clients takes the process seriously and reads the responses. For medium and small projects though, you’re spot on. Small agencies can spend more time writing these than it takes to do the job. These small jobs do lead to long term relationships and while initially tactical, can become strategic through smaller directives by the agency. Frankly, it’s the same small step approach that you mention in your blog. No fanfare here, just small consistent positioning over multiple projects over time. The client looks back after 12+ months and says, “Wow I’m building a strong effective brand”. One problem you might say, is that there is no agency fee collected for a big strategy phase, but if the client becomes reliant on the agency, for say… an average of 6 years, the long term value of the client can be worth more. Of course, this only works with medium size clients.

]]> By: Justin Spohn http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-59 Justin Spohn Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:02:40 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-59 Taylor - all good insights, though I have to take exception to people terming this crowd sourcing. For me, that term gives the process too much credit. Crowd sourcing, in my mind, has always been about asking people to give their thoughts and insights into a project to make it better <em>for them.</em> As far as I can tell, this is just asking for free work. That's a different thing altogether. Taylor – all good insights, though I have to take exception to people terming this crowd sourcing. For me, that term gives the process too much credit. Crowd sourcing, in my mind, has always been about asking people to give their thoughts and insights into a project to make it better for them. As far as I can tell, this is just asking for free work. That’s a different thing altogether.

]]> By: Justin Spohn http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-58 Justin Spohn Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:59:00 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-58 Agreed Charlie - tough times call for creativity on everyones part. That's what motivated me to write this, my biggest issue isn't with the city trying to patch budget holes while also giving the city a better online presence, it's commodification of the process. What would be nice to see, from all clients, but also from agencies is a lot more thought and creativity into the process of both finding a new partner as well discovering what type of work even needs to be done in the first place. In the case of portlandonline.com, there was a presupposition that what was needed was a full overhaul of the existing site. A costly and time consuming process. But is that really the best use of everyones time? Is that really the most effective end result? It's really impossible to say without the type of insights you can only get by establishing a relationship and doing some testing and discovery. For all we know, the city might be better served with a well maintained Facebook page (just as an example). That where I feel the RFP process does everyone a disservice. It's full of assumptions and preconceived notions about solutions and value before any insight has actually been gained. Agreed Charlie – tough times call for creativity on everyones part. That’s what motivated me to write this, my biggest issue isn’t with the city trying to patch budget holes while also giving the city a better online presence, it’s commodification of the process. What would be nice to see, from all clients, but also from agencies is a lot more thought and creativity into the process of both finding a new partner as well discovering what type of work even needs to be done in the first place.

In the case of portlandonline.com, there was a presupposition that what was needed was a full overhaul of the existing site. A costly and time consuming process. But is that really the best use of everyones time? Is that really the most effective end result? It’s really impossible to say without the type of insights you can only get by establishing a relationship and doing some testing and discovery. For all we know, the city might be better served with a well maintained Facebook page (just as an example). That where I feel the RFP process does everyone a disservice. It’s full of assumptions and preconceived notions about solutions and value before any insight has actually been gained.

]]> By: Taylor Vignali http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-57 Taylor Vignali Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:42:09 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-57 I appreciate your thoughts on the #portlandonline conversation happening right now. As a designer, I am annoyed with the City of Portland for choosing this manner in which to get free design work. My preference is for them to keep the site the way it is rather than risk releasing a lower-quality site that does not serve the interests of the citizens of our great city. I am fascinated by the idea of involving the community in the development of the City's website...however, feel that the RFP itself is poorly structured for any significant, quality result to emerge. Many tough questions much be answered for an effective website to be built. It might be more intriguing if they had asked for citizens to pitch in with the "wrapper" or "skinning" of the site. For this to happen, there would have to be a very specific document released with all of the dimensions for backgrounds, buttons and other page elements from which to design around. In essence, the look and feel would be up for grabs...but the actual web design and UI would be handled by a professional group who can deliver a quality navigational experience. As a citizen, however, I am frustrated that the City of Portland is not committed to it's own website. I feel as though the City's website offers vital life services to the people who live here and should be able to do whatever it takes to provide a superior website with a UI that is the envy of cities around the country. Portland is the "city that works" isn't it? On that note, i am more concerned that the website is good...than I am with the misguided RFP effort. In my experience, crowd-sourcing produces unreliable results. Just look at the RYZ project. The website and company branding are top notch, innovative gems. The user generated designs featured on the shoes to this point (no offense to anyone) are mostly second rate. Other cities look to Portland as an example of a great city. What sort of damage would it do to our reputation if our website turns out to be a clunky, confusing piece of dog doo? What happens when people aren't able to access important city services which represent the tax dollars they contribute? Embarrassing, if you ask me. I appreciate your thoughts on the #portlandonline conversation happening right now. As a designer, I am annoyed with the City of Portland for choosing this manner in which to get free design work. My preference is for them to keep the site the way it is rather than risk releasing a lower-quality site that does not serve the interests of the citizens of our great city. I am fascinated by the idea of involving the community in the development of the City’s website…however, feel that the RFP itself is poorly structured for any significant, quality result to emerge. Many tough questions much be answered for an effective website to be built.

It might be more intriguing if they had asked for citizens to pitch in with the “wrapper” or “skinning” of the site. For this to happen, there would have to be a very specific document released with all of the dimensions for backgrounds, buttons and other page elements from which to design around. In essence, the look and feel would be up for grabs…but the actual web design and UI would be handled by a professional group who can deliver a quality navigational experience.

As a citizen, however, I am frustrated that the City of Portland is not committed to it’s own website. I feel as though the City’s website offers vital life services to the people who live here and should be able to do whatever it takes to provide a superior website with a UI that is the envy of cities around the country. Portland is the “city that works” isn’t it?

On that note, i am more concerned that the website is good…than I am with the misguided RFP effort. In my experience, crowd-sourcing produces unreliable results. Just look at the RYZ project. The website and company branding are top notch, innovative gems. The user generated designs featured on the shoes to this point (no offense to anyone) are mostly second rate.

Other cities look to Portland as an example of a great city. What sort of damage would it do to our reputation if our website turns out to be a clunky, confusing piece of dog doo? What happens when people aren’t able to access important city services which represent the tax dollars they contribute? Embarrassing, if you ask me.

]]> By: Charlie Quirk http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-56 Charlie Quirk Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:40:12 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-56 Great post Justin, As with any creative service, it is hard to quantify the exact value an agency brings to a project ahead of time. The Nike vs. Tropicana example you used is a gem. In this case though, I think the tough economic times triggered the original action, as such the response was exacerbated much more than if biz was booming. It's no secret that Oregon's doing it tough at the moment, and the creative class of Portland adds much to the vitality of the city. It is easy to see can see how a sense of betrayal ran rampant. But at the same time, in a time that governments across the country are hell bent on being fiscally prudent, it is a totally understandable one. Onward and upwards :) Great post Justin,

As with any creative service, it is hard to quantify the exact value an agency brings to a project ahead of time. The Nike vs. Tropicana example you used is a gem.

In this case though, I think the tough economic times triggered the original action, as such the response was exacerbated much more than if biz was booming. It’s no secret that Oregon’s doing it tough at the moment, and the creative class of Portland adds much to the vitality of the city. It is easy to see can see how a sense of betrayal ran rampant.

But at the same time, in a time that governments across the country are hell bent on being fiscally prudent, it is a totally understandable one.

Onward and upwards :)

]]> By: Eric Hillerns http://thisisviolence.net/2009/07/16/their-fault-or-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-55 Eric Hillerns Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:29:33 +0000 http://thisisviolence.net/?p=239#comment-55 Excellent post, Justin. The discussion is the first step to the change that you're suggesting. It's on us. Our friends over at Substance like to say, "let's do better". So are we doing better by having these discussions? I certainly hope so. Excellent post, Justin. The discussion is the first step to the change that you’re suggesting. It’s on us. Our friends over at Substance like to say, “let’s do better”. So are we doing better by having these discussions? I certainly hope so.

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